Transcript for Interview with Tad Brennan on Stoic Religion

Read the Full Interview Transcript.

0. Introduction

We all kind of have a sense of what being a Stoic means. You're tough, you're resilient, maybe you take a lot of ice baths. But how do you actually live life as a Stoic? How do you make those big and important decisions?

This is what my guest, Tad Brennan, a legendary Stoics caller, is going to help us unpack today we're going to explore three different formulations of the Stoic way of life: To act virtuously, to select things well, and to live in accordance with nature.

But the surprising thing that Professor Brennan will show us is how these seemingly simple prescriptions are grounded on a whole host of theological views. You can't be a Stoic without believing in Zeus. Stoic ethics just does not work without Stoic religion.

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1. Virtue

Johnathan Bi: So in this interview I want to explore three different formulations of Stoic ethics, what the Stoic ought do. And the first formulation is to live in accordance with virtue. So what is virtue in the Stoic conception?

Tad Brennan: Yeah, so a virtue in general is whatever makes a thing a good one of its kind. So the virtue of a horse is running quickly, the virtue of a knife is cutting things sharply, and so on. So the virtue for a human being is whatever is going to make a human being a good human being. The Stoics seem to think that virtue is constituted by a kind of knowledge. So what makes a human a good human is knowing some stuff where knowing there's going to be a certain kind of assent to a certain kinds of impressions, the right kinds of impressions. And what you need to know to be a virtuous Stoic is something about the nature of things that are good and things that are bad and things that are neither good nor bad. So you need to know about the nature of the universe, you need to know theology, but in particular you need to know what's really valuable and what's not valuable, and how to handle things that are neither good nor bad. Luckily, part of that story is quite easy. The only thing that's good is virtue, and the only thing that's bad is vice.

Tad Brennan: Wait a second. Isn't that a bit circular? I mean, if virtue is just knowing what's good.

Johnathan Bi: Which is virtue. Yeah.

Tad Brennan: And the only virtue that's good is virtue, haven't we got a very small content to it? Well, we would. And this is a problem that Plato already put his finger on back in the Euthydemus, and partway through the Republic, luckily, there is this other content. We need to know how to handle things that are neither good nor bad. That's the world of indifference. And a lot of what you actually know when you're virtuous as a stoic is how to handle things that are neither good nor bad. The world of indifference covers really the world of human practical activity. Health is indifferent, illness is indifferent, wealth and poverty are all indifferent.

Tad Brennan: And virtue is largely constituted by knowing how to react to the things around you in the world which are themselves indifferent.

Johnathan Bi: Right.

Tad Brennan: Although they're indifferent, it's not a matter of indifference how you handle them. Now, I should say what we mean by indifferent is that it does not contribute to your happiness or to your unhappiness. So it makes no difference in that sense whether I'm healthy or whether I'm unhealthy. I'm capable of being happy even if I'm ill, capable of being wretched even if I'm healthy. So they're indifferent in that sense. But the Stoics say, if you want to be a happy person, you still need to know how to deal with health. You need to know how to deal with illness. And that's largely what your virtue will consist in, is your knowledge of how to deal with indifferents.

Johnathan Bi: Right. So very simply, virtue is responding to the circumstances in the best way possible. Whatever life throws at you, responding it, stewarding it well. I think Aristotle here has a much more reasonable relationship between goods and virtue. And Aristotle says, look, the fully virtuous person is never going to be miserable, no matter what bad things happen to him. If he gets tortured, because he's always going to handle it well, he's always going to be a good character. But if we have... If you want full virtue, we need at least some goods, if not just as a basis to practice virtue, right? Like if I... You know, for me to do philosophy, I need to have some kind of leisure, right? I'm not just toiling every day, or...

Tad Brennan: If you're going to be generous you need to be generous with resources.

Johnathan Bi: Exactly. Yeah. I need something to be generous with.

Tad Brennan: Right.

Johnathan Bi: Why do the Stoics take the extreme position and say, no, no, no, virtue only?